Trevor Muir | Project Based Learning - Transcript
Jeremy Singer: [00:00:00] I'm Jeremy Singer, president of the College Board, and this is the Education Equation. I've spent my career grappling with what truly drives student success. On this podcast, I'll talk with people who are researching, building and scaling solutions that matter. Every episode will go beyond the hype and focus on data and evidence to see what's actually working.
Let's stop guessing and let's figure out what works./
My guest today is Trevor Muir, an educator, author, speaker, and founder of Epic PBL. Trevor's our keynote speaker here at College Board's Advanced Placement Annual Conference, which is where we are taping this episode. Trevor has spent his career helping teachers make learning more meaningful, not by lowering standards, but by asking students to do [00:01:00] real work, solve actual problems, collaborate with each other, and create something that matters.
He began his career as a classroom teacher in Michigan, including a school built around project-based learning. And now he works with educators around the country on how to design learning experiences that are engaging, rigorous, and practical. He's also the author of three books: The Epic Classroom, we have right here, The Collaborative Classroom, and New Teacher Mindset, all geared to help teachers effectively teach project-based learning.
This conversation feels especially timely. At a moment when AI can produce polished work instantly, Trevor and I will discuss how to ensure that students benefit from learning exercises that require them to think, to struggle, to collaborate, to revise, and at the end, to produce something meaningful.
Trevor Muir, welcome to the Education Equation.
Trevor Muir: So excited to be a part of it, Jeremy. Thanks for having me.
Jeremy Singer: We love it. so look, many of our listeners are [00:02:00] familiar with project-based learning, but this will be a new idea for some.
Trevor Muir: Mm.
Jeremy Singer: So let's just start, simple description, what is project-based learning, and we'll do PBL as we go, and how does it differ from how things are traditionally taught in classrooms?
Trevor Muir: Yeah. You know, I love a good story. And that's what I write about, and I talk about it, and I love telling good stories. And you remember good stories, right? Like, you remember when there was a conflict that needed to be solved, and we didn't know how it's gonna be solved, and then somehow through work and learning and toil and effort and guidance, the character solves the problem, and it's like that's why we remember it.
Yep, yep. And then there's all this brain science that shows why we remember information that way. We're formatted to remember the problems that are solved, and that's all project-based learning really is, is a good story. students are introduced to a problem, and then they have to engage in learning and instruction and collaboration and problem-solving and critical thinking, and they have to do authentic work in order to solve it.
And all project-based learning really is is figuring out [00:03:00] how can my students learn content of whatever I teach, whether it's AP Calc or Home Ec, I am learning this content- Yeah ... in order to solve this problem that matters to me.
Jeremy Singer: That's great, and we'll get into a lot of detail, but give me a, give our listeners an example of a project-based unit or a topic- Yeah
Make it real for them.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. You know, I'll be talking about this in the keynote tomorrow, but- Okay ... one time I had a refugee come in and talk to my class and share her story, and she talked about how she was a child in Rwanda, and there was the genocide, and she spent the next 17 years at a camp with no connection to the outside world, no electricity, no running water, and then one day was put on an airplane without the slightest clue where it was gonna land, ended up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where it's cold.
Yeah. She, this woman, her name's Beth Lisa, she told my students,and these are world history English students, so it was a global studies class. She told them how she thought there must be a volcano nearby because of this weird white ash falling from the sky. She'd never heard of snow before, so she didn't know how to dress for it, didn't know how to use the [00:04:00] appliances, didn't know how to get on a bus and get a job, all of this was brand new to her.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: And I remember after she left, I asked my students, "So what do you think about this?" And they're like That's stupid. Why didn't somebody just show her how to use a bus?" It's like, well, that is kind of stupid, isn't it? Maybe you could help refugees learn how to use a bus, or how to use simple appliances, or cook simple recipes.
But to do this, we're gonna have to learn about how people adapt to new technologies and new cultures and new ideas. So let's look at the Industrial Revolution, and let's study that and learn that and read about that and discuss that, and we're gonna take what we're learning to create these tools and resources that we're gonna present to an actual panel of social workers with the hope that this might be helpful and they'll use it in their program.
And so, like, that's what we did. And so it was very content-heavy. It was still school. Right, right. There was still an assessment, but it was also really driven by this need to help these people in our community.
Jeremy Singer: it's almost like she was a, hook to make, you know, to engage them into the material.
Was that your plan? I mean, did you start with that master plan of like, [00:05:00] "This story connects to I wanna teach them about- Yeah ... the Industrial Revolution. Here's a great way to get them into it and engaged, and here's a way to turn it into some activity"?
Trevor Muir: It eventually got there. Yeah. I mean, when I first started teaching this unit, it was we're gonna teach the Industrial Revolution and then students are gonna get into groups and create a PowerPoint slide, a project- Yeah
and then they're gonna share that with the rest of the class. And it's like, that worked for a little while when PowerPoint was new and shiny, but eventually it turned into one kid doing all the work- Yeah ... and everybody else riding on the coattail. Or it turned into everybody just doing their own slide and combining it at the end.
Yeah. And you had all these different fonts and levels of detail, and that was like a dessert project. Yeah. Like, a lot of us have negative experiences with projects 'cause we're picturing dessert projects rather than main course. Right,
Jeremy Singer: right. And let me pause you 'cause we'll get into like-
Trevor Muir: Okay
Jeremy Singer: what makes good PBL and what doesn't- Mm-hmm ... in a minute. But you started as a classroom teacher. Was there, like- an aha moment for you either during your training or when you start teaching where you realize, the power of project-based learning and, like, this is a better way than sort of sage on a [00:06:00] stage or traditional direct instruction?
Trevor Muir: Oh, absolutely, 100%.
Yeah, because, like, w- what I learned is like, oh, students, I'm still teaching, I'm still doing direct instruction, I'm still using my best practices. It's now just framed by something that matters more. What was
Jeremy Singer: your moment that, like-
Trevor Muir: Oh- ... c-
Jeremy Singer: can you think back of, like-
Trevor Muir: Easy ...
yeah, I had a student named Dan who just was so low-engagement. It turns out he was a foster kid with a whole history, had no interest in grades or the traditional motivators of school. But then when he had this opportunity to create a documentary for a World War II veteran in our, our town, and this kid was really into movies.
So it's like, oh, you can actually make a movie.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: But to do this, we've gotta learn about World War II, we've gotta dive into the context, we've gotta read the book Night by Elie Wiesel. We've gotta learn so that we can actually effectively make this. This kid that was not paying attention otherwise was all of a sudden like, "Oh, but I will make a movie."
And then when I say, all right, but now we gotta write their narratives out, and we've gotta make sure that the grammar is excellent because if it's not, it's gonna distract people from this mission of preserving these stories. Right. All of a [00:07:00] sudden he's like, "Okay, I'll pay attention to a grammar unit because, like, now you're not teaching me grammar just 'cause it's in the Common Core or because-
Jeremy Singer: Yeah,
Trevor Muir: yeah
you said so. I'm learning grammar 'cause it serves this thing that's bigger than me." And, like, that's really the concept here.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And then at that point you're like, wow, this, this really took
Trevor Muir: effect. Oh, yeah. That was in my first year, and I was just like like, I wonder what else we can make more purposeful.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: , You know, we can call it project-based learning if that's helpful. I think a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth for projects, and so you don't have to call it project-based learning. Call it problem-based learning, call it authentic learning. Right. You can call it, like, oh yeah, I teach, but I try to find purposeful motivators for students.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Muir: and when you do that well, students learn more.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah. And was there a moment... So you got hooked early. You saw this instance, a student- Really hard to reach a student- Yep ... to engage a student. Boom, you figure out a way to do it. Yeah. The VOWS project. you've since become, you know, one of the leading, experts, trainers,even as far as an evangelist.
Mm-hmm. So when did, how did that happen? I'm just curious.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. You know, it really started at like I was teaching in a new tech school- Yeah ... which is [00:08:00] really, I mean, it was a public school, but it was everybody was there teaching in this project-based learning way. So we had all of this buy-in, and people would come and learning lab with us and say, "Oh, I wanna watch and see how to do this and take it back to my school."
And you know, our school was made for this type of learning, so we had like two-hour blocks with kids, cross-curricular. Right. Total buy-in. The principal bought in, teachers, students bought in. So it was like they saw the very best version of it, and I'd hear feedback at the end of these, sessions.
They'd be like, "Love it, but my kids are sitting in desks that were there since the 1960s." You know what I mean? Right, right, right, right. Or like, "I've got 50-minute blocks," or, "I've got this scripted curriculum-
Jeremy Singer: Right ...
Trevor Muir: that I'm not allowed to deviate from. How does this apply there?" I was like, " "Oh, that's a good point."
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: And so I went and started working at a much more traditional school with a leader who really wanted to push the boundaries, but had a lot of these constraints to see, like, I wonder if this concept works there. And then it did, and then I got the opportunity to go and start talking about it, and I did a TED Talk about it.
And it's just like, oh, this is something that everybody can do, and it might look different in different contexts. [00:09:00]
Jeremy Singer: Right. Right,
Trevor Muir: right. Right? But- Yeah ... like this is available to everyone, and everybody is motivated by purposeful work, kids and adults.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: Right. So it's, it works.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. No, it's a great, I mean, it, I love that origin 'cause it- It's almost like you, the first, you were in a fairly conducive environment- Mm-hmm
at first, and then you sort of, you took the challenge of-
Trevor Muir: Yeah ...
Jeremy Singer: okay, this is less conducive, but I can still do it. And, and that's probably why- Yeah ... you've been so successful at helping others, so. That,
Trevor Muir: that's exactly right. And so now I can go into an urban school district or a rural school district, or talk to AP teachers, or talk to students with special need- teachers with special needs.
Doesn't matter. It- Got it ... at its core, it's what's a relevant problem to your students, and how can we find ways to teach the content and develop all these other skills and competencies while learning this content? Yeah. Yeah. It works everywhere.
Jeremy Singer: That's awesome. all right. So at College Board, we talk a lot about,, a relevance crisis, and this is not something new.
Mm. I'm sure when, you know, you were in school, when I was in school, we always knew someone who just couldn't find the connection- Yeah ... to what they were learning and why they were [00:10:00] learning and, and really just sort of disengaged. Mm-hmm. you know, this has been going on for a long time.
COVID hit, and there was a, th- that was a big piece when people went remote, and even when they came back. I remember
Trevor Muir: that.
Jeremy Singer: , and now AI. Mm-hmm. And so, I saw a recent Walton Gallup survey. It's about half the students, don't believe their coursework, gives them the opportunity to do, what they do best.
Mm. Four in 10- Saw that ... in the field, find the work does not challenge them. And then one in three say that in the last week, they don't feel they learned anything interesting. So those are depressing numbers. , Help the listeners figure out, you know, how does project-based learning, I mean, you talked about the story, you talked about, how engaged, but give us more about, like, how can that be one of the ways to try to address some of this relevance crisis?
Trevor Muir: Yeah, I mean, I think at its core, project-based learning, another synonym you can give it is applied learning.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: It's like I'm applying what I'm learning, I might get pushback on this, but I think if you can't apply it in any way, then I'm not sure why we're teaching it.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: But the reality is you can apply everything, right?
Like, I mean, we've, we've [00:11:00] workshopped and tried to figure out the content that we teach so much, like there is value to it. But I think the traditional or at least the old school way of thinking is like, "No, you're in school and this is what you learn." Or it's, "So you can pass this exam and move to the next level."
And for some students, like 20% of American kids, it's like, that get As, it's like, "All right, I'll do it for that reason." There's a whole lot of students who need something more to help them do it. And so I think one of the tasks of an educator is to articulate to themselves and then to their students, what is the reason for learning this?
Jose: Right.
Trevor Muir: Right? It's not enough to just say, "Well, 'cause factoring polynomials is gonna be on the exam." It's like, where do people actually factor polynomials? How can I use that? I was ... I did a workshop today at the AP conference here where a AP calc teacher was talking about how she had her students design race tracks, to scale race tracks using AP standards, using calculus to design- Right
these race tracks. And it's like, all right, are they changing the world by making model race tracks? No. But she identified that as useful to students. They could see, oh, this is calculus being used in a [00:12:00] realistic way.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: And it's like that connection was enough, and she was just talking about how her students love it, and there's a reputation in their school for this project, and kids are excited about- Yeah
getting to that. And it's like, yeah, it's just relevance. It's making those connections.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. What's interesting, and it never occurred to me before which is probably a little slow here, but it, it feels like there's two parts to, There are two different things going on here. Mm. Right? So one is, and this is just, you know, it's obvious, but it's good.
If you can connect what you're teaching regardless of how you're teaching it- Mm-hmm ... to the importance, you're more likely to engage the students. Yeah. So if you can say, "Hey, this matters." Mm-hmm. Now we know a lot of students, if you're trying to ... If you put the what it's connected to too far out-
Trevor Muir: Yep,
Jeremy Singer: yep
like, "This is gonna matter to you in 10 years," everyone's gonna roll their eyes. That's right. So it's gotta fit more. So that's you could be doing more traditional direct instruction. You still would want to say, "Hey, I teach you about polynomials, but let me tell you why polynomials- Yeah
y- you're gonna actually need this or why this is valuable." So there's that part in how you approach it. Mm-hmm. There's the other part which you said [00:13:00] earlier, which is, you know, by doing- Mm-hmm ... by working through, you really learn and, you know, there's great studies on that. Yeah. So is that the right combination?
Do you think of it in that, that way?
Trevor Muir: Yeah, it's right on the head. Exactly. I mean, I think not everything has to be projects. Yeah. You know, just like in life, like we always have projects going on at home. Right now I'm building a new side yard in my house and putting in a deck and like, but my whole life isn't working on that project.
Just like school doesn't need to all be these intensive projects that are happening, but I do think relevance can be there all the time. Right. But then when you take it a step further and say, "Okay, there's the relevant connection, but we're actually gonna do something with it." That's where I think the deepest learning happens- Yeah
when it's applied.
Jeremy Singer: So that's the magic. So you're saying, "Hey, here's a concept I want them to learn."
Trevor Muir: That's right.
Jeremy Singer: How do I make it relevant, and then how do I turn it into something that's not just me speaking at them or them reading something?
Trevor Muir: Yeah, they're figuring something. They're actually solving something.
And you know, I just saw the the 2026 National Association of Colleges and Employers, they survey, like, 3,000 employers every year asking, "What are the top skills that you [00:14:00] want in young employees?" And the number one, I think, was problem-solving this year. So it's like they want- we're desperate for more problem solvers- Yeah
in our society, in the workplace. Critical thinkers, problem solvers. Critical thinkers is number four on that list. Yeah, yeah. Communication and teamwork, and professionalism is the other one. It's like these are the things that we need, and it's like you can only develop those competencies by practicing them.
Right. You don't just become a problem solver. You don't just learn how to work with other pe- I don't think we're born knowing how to give and receive critical feedback- Right ... or how to hold somebody accountable. It's like you gotta learn how to do that.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: And so if we need to teach that, let's teach that, but let's do it within the context of our classrooms.
I don't think it just has to happen in electives or senior capstones or graduation requirements. Those are all great, but it's like we can do this in calculus.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: We can do this in English class.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think and, and I know our colleagues in the humanities are excited by this because a lot of those skills can be taught- That's right
not in just the STEM subjects as well. Mm-hmm. So all right, I wanna go back to something ' what is good PBL? Hmm. So like term is thrown around very liberally. [00:15:00] often anything that isn't direct instruction- Yes ... could be called. you know, you point out there are good projects, there are bad projects, there are dessert- Mm-hmm
versus main course I've heard you use. Yep. So can you help listeners understand, like- What is the difference and, and how do you see it? And maybe you've had ones where you thought it was gonna be a good one, it didn't turn out. Like- Yeah ... help us understand that.
Trevor Muir: Well, I mean, did you ever do a model volcano when you were a kid?
Jeremy Singer: I think so, or at least my kids did.
Trevor Muir: Yeah, most of
Jeremy Singer: us did. Which th- mean, I helped.
Trevor Muir: Yeah, that, that's right, where the mom puts it together the night- ... before it's due, or the older sibling gives their younger sibling theirs to turn in. And it's like the, you know, model project, model volcanoes are fine, but students don't usually learn about volcanoes through them.
They come as a dessert afterwards. Like, a dessert is the meal you don't need. It's nice-
Jeremy Singer: Right ...
Trevor Muir: but sometimes we don't have space for dessert, and sometimes teachers don't have space for something that isn't purposeful. So we do all the learning first, and then that comes afterwards. Right. Whereas main course, that's the meal you need.
That's the protein and vitamins and sustenance. And what I think a really strong project is, is where the problem is existent the whole time. So, like, we can still do model volcanoes, [00:16:00] but at the very beginning of the learning unit, we give them a problem that matters. We're designing model volcanoes so that we can go and take these to an elementary school and help other kids learn about them.
Yeah. But to do this, we're gonna have to learn about volcanoes. We're gonna have to come up with designs. We're gonna have to give feedback on what we're doing. We're gonna have to test it out. So, like, the problem is there the whole time, and that means all the learning that's happening is being driven by the problem.
The problem doesn't get introduced at the end. It's like, no, it's what's motivating the learning throughout the whole process.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
So, you know, let's say you're talking to a listener who's a teacher. they've traditionally done direct instruction.
They may be new, they may be more experienced. beyond reading your books- ... what guidance would you give them in how to design something that works for sort of this dessert-like trap?
Trevor Muir: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it starts with, you know, an exercise I do with teachers is like, let's just generate a big list of problems that exist in your school or community.
Like, don't even worry about project ideas. Just come up with a big list of problems, and then all of a sudden you can look at this and be like, "All right, which of these are relevant to students? Do I think..." Now, [00:17:00] sometimes, like you said, you don't nail it.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: But what do I think my students would be interested in solving?
And then you go a step further: Which of these do you think I can find connections to the content of my class? And then once you've got that- So
Jeremy Singer: you start, it's an interesting strategy. Mm-hmm. Like, you start with- What would be interesting projects- That's right ... as opposed to here's a learning objective.
Trevor Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Singer: And then you, so you backwards map to then the content itself or what's trying to be taught.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. I like to begin with the end in mind. What do I envision my students creating, and then how do I work back? What do we need to do to actually get to that point? So figuring out what do I want that final thing to be.
When we did that World War II project with, Dan's class, it started with like, man, we've got these aging World War II vets, and I want my students to be able to capture their stories. What would be the end product there? Well, and I just, through brainstorming and collaborating with others, it's like, wouldn't it be cool if students could showcase their work in front of the community?
Whoever wants to show up can come and learn from World War II heroes. So there's my end product. All right. What would we need to do to get there? What content do we need to [00:18:00] cover? What activities, lessons, sometimes direct instruction. Like, I think that's always really important to throw out there, is just 'cause you're doing projects doesn't mean you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Right. There's traditional best practices that worked 50 years ago, and they still work today. Right.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: So where do I, where do those plug in?
Jeremy Singer: But I mean, you don't start with, like, osmosis. Like, I wanna teach osmosis, let's figure out a pro- You're thinking, "Here's something quite interesting, and it may work for this, it may work for that, it may work for something."
Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Or you can start with osmosis, too. Like- Yeah ... I mean, that's also a strategy, too, is say, all right, what's the standard? And then what a problem... How, okay, I've got the standard. Is there a theme there? Is there a big idea- Yeah ... contained within this standard? And then what would be relevant that can connect it with that?
You know, you said AI a minute ago. Yeah. I got plenty of reservations about AI in the world.
Jose: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. I will say it is one of the most unbelievable project planning partners you'll ever meet.
Jose: Right.
Trevor Muir: And so you can go into AI, and you can say, "Here are the content standards I'm covering. Help me generate a list of 20 problems that might be relevant to my kids in Paducah, Kentucky."
Jose: Right.
Trevor Muir: And it will [00:19:00] literally be like, "Well, Paducah, Kentucky has an invasive species problem with carp, and it's got this and this." Right. Right. Oh, and then all of a sudden, like, and it'll just brainstorm with you.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Which, ideally you'd get to sit down with other educators all the time and throw these ideas around- But time is a very limited resource, and it's usually the number one obstacle teachers tell me is what keeps them from doing this stuff.
So I can go into AI, and it will help me generate project ideas.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, I can imagine.
Trevor Muir: And then I personalize and, and make sure that it fits my actual students.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. no, that's fascinating. I was gonna try... I, I was gonna see if I could avoid talking about AI, but-
Jose: Uh-oh. I jumped the gun.
Jeremy Singer: No, no, no, but it's the exact perfect case of it, so I wanted to go there, and I was like, "I am not gonna go there 'cause I- Yeah
everyone says I go to AI too much."
Trevor Muir: But it's like, listen, if we have this resource- Yeah ... and, and, and it is proven to be helpful to make learning more engaging and authentic for students, it'd be kind of silly not to use it- Right ... wouldn't it?
Jeremy Singer: No, of course. Yeah, yeah. No, and I... It's a...
You're, you're excellent. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's great for helping take a lot of data, give some ideas. That's right. And some of them are gonna be terrible, but [00:20:00] you can then do it. So help... Again, I think you've hit on this. I'm just trying to be , as, clear as possible- Mm-hmm ... for listeners. But, like, so in the classroom, if someone's doing PBL well, if a teacher is doing it, what are they doing differently in their class time?
What are they doing the same that they would for a traditional direct instruction?
Trevor Muir: That's a really great question. you know, I think there's got to be some level of voice and choice with students. So I think it's less the teacher's the sage on the stage, the giver of all information. I think students have to discover it.
They've gotta wrestle with it. project-based learning does not always have to be collaborative.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: But I think there should be collaborative elements to it, especially as it's the number two most desired skill in the 21st century. Yep. Yeah. And so it's like we've gotta have opportunities for students to collaborate and work with other people and give and receive critical feedback- Yeah
and work with people they don't like- Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah ...
Trevor Muir: and work with people they do like and work with new people they don't know, 'cause that's what the world looks like. And so I think there's more of a... You know, I've, I've called it before the occupational setting. [00:21:00] You know, like, I want the setting of my classroom to look like the occupation that students are modeling right now.
When they're creating refugee resources, we kind of look like a social work agency right now. We're making professional phone calls. We're doing authentic research. We're having conversations about how we can empathize and serve people. Looks a little different than when I'm just up front. But I also think there's times where, no, the teacher's gotta go to the front of the room and demonstrate- Right
Or give some direct instruction. Yeah. You know, when I'm teaching s- When we did the World War II project the first year, my son was born that year, and I ran out of time, and I didn't review students' films before we showed them at this big red carpet event.
Jeremy Singer: Okay.
Trevor Muir: Not a good idea. I put in that first DVD.
Jeremy Singer: That could be very dangerous.
Trevor Muir: Oh, man. Career
Jeremy Singer: limiting, potentially. There was
Trevor Muir: no audio on the first film that we showed, so it was just Just muted. I'm like, "Oh, sorry everybody. Let me put in another one." And then, you know, this was like 2012 iPhone technology- Oh, God ... so it's, "Normandy." And you couldn't hear a word they said, and it was like, ugh, not great.
So [00:22:00] year two of the project, I required they put in subtitles, so if you can't hear it at least you can read it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: But my daughter was born that year, and I didn't review their subtitles- Oh, no. ... before the big event. And a lot of kids were spelling the word you with the letter U.
Jeremy Singer: Okay.
Trevor Muir: And like misspellin' veteran names, and there wasn't a comma in sight, and it was like, ah.
Afterwards everybody had something to say about my poor grammar. Yeah. And so I'm like, ah, you know what? Not great. So you know what I did in my third year of the unit? When I did this one, I tied in my spelling and grammar unit. I was going to teach it anyway- I love it ... that year. That's genius. Yeah,
Jose: yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: So now we're gonna teach grammar. And guess what? There are some tried and true best practices for teaching grammar that haven't changed. A little bit of drill and kill. Yeah. Sometimes I gotta demonstrate on a whiteboard, and then you practice it. Yeah. And then I gotta give you a worksheet because grammar requires repetition.
And so, you know, one time somebody was observing my class during this unit, and they were like, "I thought you did projects. You just did like a traditional grammar unit." Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, "Oh yeah, the grammar unit was the part of the project." Yeah. Because if we don't have strong grammar, it's gonna distract people from our primary objective of honoring these [00:23:00] veterans.
And so when I say that to students, "Guys, pay attention to how to use a comma here 'cause they need to be perfect in your films," there's just an extra layer of motivation and interest.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. I was gonna say, it's gotta be motivating to the kids- And it's like- ... 'cause they, they want it to, to work, and they want, they don't wanna embarrass themselves.
You know? Yeah. That's
Trevor Muir: right.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. That's what I mean by not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: A lot of teachers are hesitant about this 'cause they're like, "I don't wanna reinvent myself completely." Yeah. I'm like, "No, I don't want you to either 'cause there's a lot of things you do well.
But- I mean, all of the competition for students' attention, all of the AI you talked about- Yeah ... all of the distraction, political noise, and everything that comes with being a kid now. It's like we have to really focus on what is motivating to students. And there's no perfect answer, but I think one of them is trying to figure out, how do I give them a purposeful problem to solve- Yeah
while they're learning it?
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. There's a real outcome- Mm ... to this, so, we'll get into a little more of that. But, so look, it's not a coincidence that we have you, talking to thousands of attendees at the AP annual conference. a large part of my listeners are AP teachers.
We have- Mm. I wish we had all [00:24:00] 200,000 AP teachers But, but some portion of them do. and, you know, these teachers, you know, engage with th- 3 million plus students a year- Mm ... introducing them to college-level work. the Lucas Education,their research area funded a research that showed that, rigorous project-based learning improved outcomes, for AP US government and AP environmental science, and I know you're familiar with this.
We were very excited 'cause it was a true randomized control trial, which is very rare in education that- Yeah ... that you can show that it, it has an impact. So we were very, thrilled. So I want your perspective on some of this. I have a bunch of questions. the first just, do you think there's a difference
I , how does project-based learning differ either by subject, 'cause you got into some different- Mm-hmm ... or, or by age and how significantly? Obviously teaching a 6-year-old is different from an 18-year-old. Yeah. But like help us think through that then in the context of, AP.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. I think it takes different shapes and forms in different classrooms. I don't think it's a one-size-fit-all. I can tell you like math teachers are often doing problem-based learning. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's smaller.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: [00:25:00] It's, you know, it's really hard in a math class, especially an AP level math class, to cut out a month-
Jeremy Singer: Yeah
Trevor Muir: to do a project.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: or if they do, the project isn't always happening. It's like, "All right guys, we're gonna learn about this concept today and we're gonna do this thing, and we're gonna work on the project tomorrow." Or, "Hey, we're gonna work on the projects on Wednesdays," and it's something that you're returning to, and it's just giving the students opportunity to work out these skills, apply the math in some ways, but it's not necessarily like, oh yeah, every day we're working on this project.
Jeremy Singer: Right. Or- So some topics are much more conducive rather than-
Trevor Muir: Oh, without a doubt.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah,
Trevor Muir: yeah. And then sometimes math, it's like, "Hey, I'm giving you a hypothetical problem-
Jeremy Singer: Yeah ...
Trevor Muir: that you have to use this math in order to solve it, and we're gonna do this over two days." Much smaller, but it's still a story.
Right. It's still a conflict, and then the problem solving that goes to work to a climax to where the problem is solved. And so like that's one way, whereas like, you know, in like a history class, it's thematic. You know, I mean, there's usually- Yeah ... in pretty much every social studies subject, there's a connection between the past and now.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: It's like that's a little bit easier to draw. You know, when students are learning about the Industrial Revolution, I [00:26:00] can draw connections to a modern problem that we have. And so it's like, yeah, that might be a little bit easier to say, "All right, for the next month we're engaging in this work. We're gonna be learning, but we're also gonna be creating something that is using this learning."
So- Yeah. But I mean, like elementary all the way through college, you know, I've done projects with higher ed. Yeah. And it's, it's the same concept. Yeah. It's giving a problem at the beginning.
Jeremy Singer: And I've seen some schools that have actually, you know, often middle schools or maybe late elementary that do cross-subject- Oh, yeah
projects. that seems so hard to do well.
Trevor Muir: Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: , What's your thoughts on that? I
Trevor Muir: mean, I love it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: And I was gonna say, that's another way math is often applied is like, "Hey, we can't do a whole project, but our math class can help supplements what somebody else is doing." Yeah. Yeah. You know, the English class is doing a persuasive campaign, and they need a budget.
It's like, all right, well, in algebra we'll work out the budget for you, and you can- Right ... use that data. So it's like when you can get cross-curricular, I love that.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: But also, I think sometimes we need to shake up the system.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: You know what I mean? Like- I wish we could go back in time and say, "Hey, let's [00:27:00] not separate the subject areas as much as we have."
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah. We could have a long discussion-
Trevor Muir: Oh, I know
Jeremy Singer: we could ... probably a lot of agreement on that. so put yourself in the shoes of an AP teacher. know, you're familiar, we redesigned all the AP courses over the- Mm-hmm ... last dozen years or so. They're much less, you know, regurgitating content.
Yes. They're much more about application of ideas- Critical thinking ... and thought and critical thinking. Mm-hmm. It's all the things we're talking about, problem-solving. but I still, when I talk to AP teachers, I hear, you know- This framework, there's a lot of stuff to cover, and like I don't have time- Yes
for projects. Mm-hmm. That's a common refrain at least I hear. What would you tell them? Let's say you, you've sparked an interest, which I'm sure you will- Yep ... with teachers in this conference or teachers- Mm ... who listen to the podcast. Like, what would you tell them, "Okay, I'm gonna help you make it easy to sort of start"?
Trevor Muir: Yeah. I'd say, A, I hear you. We do have loaded up curriculums, and it is difficult to cover everything but then also have time for students to mess up and fail and collaborate and do all the messy work that goes with projects. but I'd also say like you can cover content while students are working independently or while they're working collaboratively.
I talked to an amazing PBL teacher [00:28:00] today, who does this whole debate project. and it's all about using the content, and students are debating the merits of what they're learning, and the final product of what they're creating is like this big final debate. Right. And it's like yeah, well, there is just so much content being built into that.
Right. And really the only extra time allotment is introducing the problem and then that final debate day. But everything in between-
Jose: Right ...
Trevor Muir: it's not necessarily business as usual, but it's kind of business as usual. Right. We're still learning the content. It just might be a little bit more student-directed.
it might be more pulling students aside, but I don't know. That's one of the things I love about projects is because students know what they're working on, they can work with less of the teacher all the time, and that gives the teacher the ability to go and work and differentiate- Yeah ... and work in more small groups because they know the rest of the students are engaged in something.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. I don't know how you're gonna answer this, so I'm curious. I'm trying to think if I'm telling a teacher, or I'm trying to help a teacher, and,Like, okay, they wanna do project-based learning-
Trevor Muir: Mm-hmm ...
Jeremy Singer: and there's sort of, let's say there's two paths.
I'm gonna oversimplify. One is, hey, go [00:29:00] find a really good, go online or go talk to a peer who's done it and mimic something that's- Yeah ... been done, or go figure it out on your... And I can see benefits of either
Trevor Muir: oh, I'm all about it. I think that's such a good way to begin
steal From somebody else. Okay.
Jeremy Singer: Don't feel you have to create it from the scratch-
Trevor Muir: No ...
Jeremy Singer: the first time? Okay.
Trevor Muir: That World War II project, I didn't come up with that. Okay. That's it. Right? Like I, I went and found it, and then I made it my own. Yeah. I made it work for my students. I added the film element.
But like no, I, I saw somebody posted a project, and it's like I think that's what we should be doing. Yeah. that's why I love the work AP's doing- Yeah ... because there's actually curriculum now- Yeah ... for all of these different courses, and it's growing to where it's like, hey, go get your feet wet with something- Yeah
we've already planned for you.
Jeremy Singer: So highly scaffolded maybe early, and then- High- ... once, you know.
Trevor Muir: Yeah,
Jeremy Singer: and then- Gradually release responsibility once you know how to do
Trevor Muir: it. Yeah, once you get your wheels turning. Yeah. And then it's like, okay, now I can start adapting it. But absolutely use what other people have.
I create projects all the time and put 'em online for people to use 'cause it's like yeah, maybe you don't have the confidence to design your own, or maybe the skill or the time. Yeah. Whatever it is, [00:30:00] go use what somebody else has.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: tweak it, make it sure it fits for your students, and then the second year, do it again and see how it goes.
You referenced that Lucas Foundation, that was the Knowledge in Action- Yeah, yeah ... one. It's so good. They said that there's an eight percentage point increase in student performance on the AP exam in the first year. Yeah. And then a 10 percentage point increase in their effectiveness on the AP exam the second year, meaning you get better at it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: That's why I always tell teachers, like, "You might fall on your face the first year of doing a project," and I hope you have a school leader that's okay with that.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Because the second year you're gonna get better at it. You're gonna work out some kinks. You're gonna find more ways to tie content into the project work.
Yeah,
Jeremy Singer: yeah.
Trevor Muir: And you just, it's just gonna improve. Right. And I love that now that there's data to support that too.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. No, it's great. It's great. Mm-hmm. And let me actually tie back to that study, 'cause, like, two of the things they said critical to success are, two pieces. One is aligned instructional materials.
Mm-hmm. And these are sort of, duh, obvious- Yeah ... but, but still I wanna talk about it. And, and two is, good teacher professional learning. Mm-hmm. So help, put a [00:31:00] little texture behind both of those.
Trevor Muir: I agree. like, you don't need to be fully trained in PBL to do PBL. Yeah. But there are best practices
Jeremy Singer: for it.
Jose: Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... there are ways to make sure that you're doing it well, and there's so many people doing it well- Yeah ... that you can go learn from. Yeah. I think the best PD is learning lab, and go and learning from other people- Yeah ... who are doing it, going to another school that's doing it well and taking their ideas and bringing them back.
There's efficacy behind it, and you just have to go do that. But also I think good PD and reading about it and just having good discussions about it. I think that's a big piece of it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Have you seen, like paired, either departments or teachers together trying to...
They have parallel classes but both trying to implement some PBL? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Oh, I think that's the good stuff.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: I mean, I, I love it when, you know, I'll go to a district and they'll be like, "Hey, we wanna make this work, so what can we do?" And we'll, we'll have that 30,000 foot view like, "Hey, how can we shift around scheduling?"
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: How can we... Like, how can we optimize it? As I said, you can do it in a constrained environment. Yeah. You know, I've, I've seen plenty of PBL done [00:32:00] in, you know, scripted curriculum or whatever it is, and it can still be done 'cause it's just about making it purposeful. That said, when the environment fits this type of learning, it blossoms way more.
Yeah. When you have buy-in, when you can go cross-curricular. You know, I taught a bio lit class before I was doing the literature side of it and I was working with a biology teacher and, you know, they would teach the content and my students would find ways to write about it- Yeah, yeah, yeah
and read about it and... I mean, that's what science looks like in the real world.
Jeremy Singer: Right, right, right. It- I was even thinking just maybe if there's two you know, 10th grade biology teachers and they both are trying to do the same project- Yeah ... so they can, you know-
Trevor Muir: Oh, and I think that's
Jeremy Singer: also really good
they can call up, "Oh, this just didn't work," or, "This worked." Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: Absolutely.
Jeremy Singer: So let's shift gears a little bit and, and so we've been talking a lot about the teacher and PBL itself. Now put yourself in the shoes of you're the principal, you're the- Mm ... you know, instructional leader. You're going around observing classes, and you're trying to determine, is this working?
Is this being done well? Mm-hmm. Or is this a main course or is this dessert?
Trevor Muir: Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: You know, how [00:33:00] can they become, strong in evaluating and supporting that?
Trevor Muir: I always love it when I do a workshop and the school leaders are there with us.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: I've been to way too many- Yeah ... where they're like, "All right.
Here's my teachers. See you at 3:00 PM." Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Jeremy Singer: yeah.
Trevor Muir: And it's like, I love it when they have a deep understanding of what it is as well. Yeah. When they understand what strong PBL looks like, what weak projects look like.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: when they understand that, like, sometimes work is messy, and there's a degree of controlled chaos, and it might not look as productive if you're just poking your head in, but there actually might be some really good stuff brewing here.
But there has to be an understanding of that. Yeah. They've gotta understand, like, yeah, this is what it looks like, just like teaching teams are messy. Yeah. Just like real work is messy. Whatever. Like, that's... there's a chaos to work sometimes, and sometimes in school I think we're, like, trying to eliminate chaos.
Right. We're trying to eliminate messiness, and we wanna have a nice tight scope and sequence and exactly how it's supposed to flow. I was in Tennessee recently, and I was talking to a teacher who told me that she is expected to be finishing the sentence of the teacher [00:34:00] next door when the principal walks in the room.
Wow. The curriculum is that-
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah, yeah ... strict. I've seen some of those. Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: Yeah, and you're just like-
Jeremy Singer: Success For All or something
Trevor Muir: like that ... well, you wanna talk about sucking the joy out of teaching and the creativity- Yeah ... out of learning. Yeah. and so I think a big piece of school leaders is to understand what it is and then figure out, how can I support this?
Yeah. You know, because also, I should also make it clear that sometimes the chaos can become too chaotic. Yeah. but there's ways to manage it, and there's ways to be proactive about, how do we set great guidelines and use proper resources and protocols to make sure students are staying on task?
You know, I've got some great tools that I've created and then have learned from others that are really good about helping students learn to follow a task and stay on and hold each other accountable. And when those are used really well, projects go much smoother. And so I think if school leaders are well-versed in that stuff, they can support teachers in it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Let me Push a little farther 'cause, like-
Trevor Muir: Mm ...
Jeremy Singer: you know, a lot of principals or instructional leaders were former teachers.
Trevor Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Singer: And they probably are often, [00:35:00] they have practiced more traditional instruction. Yep. And hopefully they were good at it, and hopefully they sort of have some rubrics- Mm-hmm
to sort of say, "Hey, this is good instruction. I can see the students are engaged." Yep. "I can see they're very clear about what the learning objective is. I can see them doing all these cues and so forth-" Yeah ... "engaging the students," da da da. But now suddenly we're asking those same people who may not have ever really done-
Trevor Muir: Mm
Jeremy Singer: main course PBL, let's say. Yep, yep. They've done, maybe they did a couple, they did the volcano thing, but, are now in the same role. They're in the sort of observer- Mm-hmm ... evaluative role, supportive role of the teacher, but they didn't, they haven't practiced it. Yes. So like, for them,
Do they go back to the classroom and teach a PBL? You know, or is it, or is there some, some guidance you could give them?
Trevor Muir: I think they should be at the AP conference tomorrow morning. Right? Like, I think they need to learn what it can be like. I think this is one of the hurdles across the board for PBL.
Yeah. And this isn't a knock on educators, but I have learned, 'cause I ask this question all the time, "Who here was an A student when you were in high school?"
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: And I don't [00:36:00] care if we're in a rural school district or an urban one, if I'm in Costa Rica or Minnesota- Most teachers, 75% or more, were good students in school, which is, like, great.
Right. I understand why you teach. You did well here, and you wanna help other people- Right ... do well here. But then I always ask a follow-up question. "Now raise your hand if you got an A in high school, and you hated doing projects in high school." And every hand stays up 'cause they're like, "Yeah, 'cause I did all the work."
Jose: Right,
Trevor Muir: right. "And everybody rode on my coattail, and I had to share the grade- Right. Oh, that's fascinating ... and I hated projects." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jose: And
Trevor Muir: so it makes sense that a lot of people are hesitant to go into their career and wanna repeat something that didn't treat them well. Yeah. Right? There's a justification why they don't wanna do it 'cause it's like, yeah, this was stressful.
This was chaotic. This wasn't productive. And so it's like, yeah, there's a lot of hesitation there. So when you say school leaders, it's like, yeah, they might also have that same experience. I don't like projects, and so I'm not really conducive to wanting to do them. but again, often when they think back to projects, they're thinking of dessert projects- Yeah
or they're thinking about projects that didn't have a strong guideline or rubric- Yeah ... or criteria or a teacher who didn't [00:37:00] know how to manage them well, and they weren't thinking of what a really strong PBL project can look like. That's why that research you referenced is rigorous PBL.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Right?
Done well.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: how-
Jeremy Singer: And is there training they can go through or is there resources to say, like, this is,
Trevor Muir: yeah. There's some great training out there. That's what I try to help make it palatable for everybody.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: And I often will go and do trainings on PBL, and we don't call it project-based learning.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: I mean, I do, like, you know, here everybody's embracing it- Right, right ... so I'm like, all right, like, we'll call it by that name, but sometimes I'm just like, let's talk about how do we make learning units more authentic and how do we manage those units so that they're actually successful? 'Cause a lot of people don't want the baggage of projects, and I get it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: So I'm like, who cares? I think we've got enough acronyms in education.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Instead, like, how do we do this? But that's what the training is, is, like, helping them understand it and then some best practices to do it within their specific
context.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
And in the same way, , the observers or the leaders can learn from that.
Trevor Muir: Yeah, . But also, I think school leaders really have to challenge themselves to think different. They're setting the tone.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: You know what I mean?
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: That's why I said I... That [00:38:00] second school I went and worked at was a very traditional school, but they had a school leader who was like, "Ooh, I wanna do some things-
Jeremy Singer: Yeah
Trevor Muir: that really meet the needs of our kids in our community. I wanna do projects." that was like a catalyst. Yeah. And then he starts bringing in people who like to do this type of work, and then he started having me go and working with other teachers and learning from other teachers as well.
You know, there was another English teacher down the hallway who was like, "I've never done a project before, but I'm willing to take your lead on it." And so her English classroom did it, and it was a little different than the way I did it, but who cares? Right. I don't... I'm not the only one who knows how to do it.
Jeremy Singer: Right.
Trevor Muir: But then we compare notes, and- Yeah ... it's just about building a culture.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. No, it makes sense. Mm-hmm. And, and maybe at times I could imagine it- grow organically. A teacher does it- Yes ... really successful. The principal, the instructional leader sees it, other teachers see it, and then it sort of spreads a bit.
Trevor Muir: And that's how PBL spreads the best in a school- Yeah ... is somebody really latches onto it, does it well, holds an event, holds a showcase, and invites other teachers in, you know?
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Like, that's one of the things I used to do. My students would do this big debate, a different thing, and they would have this [00:39:00] big debate, and then I would just throw out to all the teachers in the school, like, "Hey, if you have a planning period, whatever, if you are free- Yeah
at 9:00 AM, we would love to have you come and be judges and- Yeah ... score their debates." And then they show up and they're like, "Oh-
Jeremy Singer: That's great ...
Trevor Muir: wow, that kid never talks in my class." Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, and he wouldn't talk in mine either, but he really likes to debate."
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. "
Trevor Muir: And so maybe you could go and plan some type of debate project."
And it's organic. It, it spreads. Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: I'm sure students start to pressure and parents. Yeah.
Trevor Muir: Oh, that's the other piece of it. Yeah. There is a pressure. Kids talk.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah. They're
Trevor Muir: like ...
Jeremy Singer: Once they see it. all right. I ask all my guests four rapid fire questions. Mm. There's no right or wrong. first one is, what's one education buzzword you wish we could retire?
Trevor Muir: I wanna say rigor.
Jeremy Singer: Okay.
Trevor Muir: Just because I think that word gets misused so much. Yeah. I think a lot of people think that's all about academic.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, yeah.
Trevor Muir: You know what I mean? Like, how do I make this as hard as possible?
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: So I'd like to repurpose that word rigor.
Jeremy Singer: All right. It counts. two, what's your favorite book, not authored by someone named Muir,
about education?
Trevor Muir: Oh, man. [00:40:00] my good friend John Spencer wrote a book called Launch- Okay ... that's all about, inquiry and design thinking and how to embed that into any classroom, and it's a really good one.
Jeremy Singer: Oh, great. I've not heard of it, and I will look it up.
Trevor Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Singer: name one thing that makes you bullish on the future for learners.
Trevor Muir: Bullish as in?
Jeremy Singer: Positive, excited.
Trevor Muir: Oh, 'cause I just, I still see kids doing really cool stuff in school.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: You know what I mean? You can go on social media, you can hear all the politicians, you can hear everybody bemoan these kids these days, but I'm like, I look at my own kids. I've got a son who's going into seventh grade and my daughter's going into fifth grade, and their teachers are fabulous, and they're still doing really good stuff.
I talked to 200 teachers today, and you just hear about the things they're still doing and the way that kids are responding. I'm like, "Oh, no, kids can still do really cool stuff in the world."
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: we just gotta give it to them.
Jeremy Singer: Love it. and then what one class do you wish all students had to take?
Trevor Muir: Oh, that's a good one. I really like entrepreneurship classes and students to understand how do you build something- Yeah ... and grow something. [00:41:00] Not just for the profit, but just to see how something grows and builds, and how you have to work with other people to do it. So I think there'd be a lot of value if every kid learned what entrepreneurship is.
'Cause that's something that's part of my life now- Yeah ... and I was never trained how to do it. Yeah. I would've loved some direct instruction- No, it's great. I mean, I- ... or some experiences to grow. Yeah,
Jeremy Singer: yeah. And I think most people just learn by doing when they face it, but they, there are practices that... Yeah, so I think that makes a ton of sense.
Trevor Muir: Yeah. We learn by when we face it, and like isn't school a great place- Yeah ... to face it? 'Cause you can fail.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah.
Trevor Muir: It's kinder than the, the business world. It's kinder than the real world, quote-unquote. And so it's like, I think that sums up our conversation is like school is a great place to develop these skills and get this knowledge that they're gonna need forever.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. All right. My last question, I was struggling with this one 'cause I often ask like, okay, imagine we're talking three, five years down the road, you know, about improving educational outcomes and like what would you want to have seen over that period? Like what changes or what new?
Mm. Now, obviously more of this [00:42:00] is- Yeah ... a big part of it, but expand beyond that. What else would you say you wanna, you know, you wanna see in the system, what would you look back in three years from now and say, "Ah, that was awesome"?
Trevor Muir: Oh, I would love to see teachers trusted to be more creative.
That's great. I'd ... More than anything else, I would love teachers to have more freedom to obviously use best practices, but also get to put their own creative flavor into it. Teaching is an inherently creative profession, right? To be able to articulate ideas, to be able to meet the needs of young learners that are just always changing, to be able to adapt to this nonstop ridiculously changing technological world.
They're already creative people. Right. And I think they should have more creativity, in the way that they structure their classes. So yeah, in five years, if there's been a movement where teachers are getting to be more creative in a lot of different ways, I think that would be a huge success for everybody.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. well, listen, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for speaking at our conference. thank you for all the insights, and keep up the fantastic work. Thank you for being- Oh,
Trevor Muir: you as well. So glad to [00:43:00] be here.
Jeremy Singer: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Trevor.
Trevor Muir: Yep. My pleasure.
Jeremy Singer: Thanks for tuning in today. Join the conversation by following the education equation wherever you listen to podcasts.